Interview with fred

Welcome back to the Clean Play Podcast. I always want to do it like, welcome back to the Clean Play Podcast. My name is Chris, this is Anne, and we're about to have a great conversation today.

I can't stand my own voice anyways, that's even worse. But Anne, we just wrapped up our conversation, our recap of New York, great travel experience. And now we're joined in Virtual Studio by someone who I am just really glad scheduled a call today, because it worked out just perfectly.

Fred is a entrepreneur, a really amazing drink master. The way that he talks about flavors is the way that Picasso thinks about colors. Like it is amazing.

Good human being with amazing energy. Really, really fortunate to know him. I met Fred in the Sans Bar Academy cohort last year, and we just ended up just being really good friends.

And of course, Fred calls me for business stuff, but we also just talk. And so I always appreciate people who can just come in and talk shop. So hopefully, this next couple of minutes, we'll talk about a little bit of shop, a little bit of sobriety, and a little bit of sports.

How's that sound, Fred?

Sounds awesome. I'm ready to go.

Awesome. Well, Fred, if you could tell us who you are. Give us a little bit of your backstory.

And yeah, what do people need to know about you?

I think probably the biggest thing is that I have, like you were saying, and I've always looked at flavor, like color. And I think that is what probably kind of drove me to like start brewing kombucha, which is what I do now full time. Rev, my company that I co-own with my partner, Terrence, has been around for almost 10 years now.

And our claim to fame is we just mix teas together and create unique flavors so we can give you something that tastes like a cherry, using tea, or we can give you something that tastes like citrus using tea. And so like our kombucha is really low in sugar, which then also means it's lower in alcohol, far below 0.5. So that's kind of super exciting for us.

So basically what we're doing is just making raw kombucha. And I'll be honest, I didn't think that this was what I was going to be doing. I started off working in technology.

And I thought I was going to do that. But because I was doing Iron Man, I was in Oklahoma City and was eating raw vegan food at the time while I was racing, and found a raw vegan restaurant in Oklahoma City that also turned out to be a culinary academy. And that's how I learned how to make kombucha, is I took courses at this culinary academy in Oklahoma City, then followed that up with advanced training in Santa Monica from the same school.

And, you know, like I say, fast forward about 12 years, here we are today. That's kind of how that worked.

Wow, thanks so much for sharing all that, Fred. I'm sure we'll like pull the layers, you know, of your story out a little bit here. But I'm not as well versed in the drink world as y'all are.

So what, you know, you talked about this kind of fusing of teas. What is a traditional kombucha made of versus like, what is yours? Like, I'm not, I'm just so basic here.

Yeah, at a very basic level, if we were to go back, so kombucha, you know, depending on who you talk to, it's a beverage that, you know, has origins back in like kind of ancient China, but also ancient Russia, where those two countries like border. And so you've got a long, deep tradition in Russia that probably could go back around 1500 to 2000 years. And in China, the same thing is true.

And so at its essence, kombucha is a fermented tea where you have a green and a black tea, typically green and black if you're looking at markets now, with a certain amount of sugar to help the fermentation. What does the fermentation with kombucha is something called the scoby, which is a symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast. So that's an acronym.

And then a certain amount of starter culture, which is technically what the scoby is living in. And that's what drives the fermentation. The sugar is what's feeding that scoby in that culture.

And then depending on your ratios, a certain amount of time goes. And you have this kind of tart, acidic and slightly sweet beverage at the end of it. So different brewers will have different methods, different ratios, even different teas.

And typical turnaround time at home might be around two weeks. In a commercial setting, sometimes that can be about a month for a batch. And when we use the word batch, it just depends on how much you're brewing.

So you might brew like a gallon at home for your family. We typically brew in like 80 gallon batches. So we'll have, I think right now we have four of those, no, five of those going at once.

So that's five times 80. So that's like 400 gallons, I think. Wow.

That's an ocean of kombucha. Yeah. What I like most about kombucha, and so I have to be honest, and you know this story.

I know it.

You know it. You know where you're going. So as a sober person, the first time I got introduced to kombucha was out of farmer's market.

You know, you feel, I don't know about anyone else, but when I get up early enough to go to the farmer's market, I feel good about myself, like look at me. Look at me. I am up with the birds.

I am awake. The sun is up. It's Saturday.

I'm going to the farmer's market. So I made my way to the farmer's market here in South Austin, you know, Fred down there. Oh yeah.

And someone's like, hey, I got this non-alcoholic drink. And I was like, oh, perfect. Oh, you know here I am.

At the time I was a decade sober. I was like, oh, perfect. You know, would love that.

I was like, no alcohol. He's like, no alcohol. And I took one sip and I just felt this like flush radiating that I could feel like this heat, this warmth, just, oh, I felt so gross.

I ran to my car and threw up, like I just felt so gross and I felt so tricked. Yeah. And then he explained like, no, it doesn't have any alcohol or has a low amount of alcohol, but it's non-alcoholic.

But to me, it tasted so much like alcohol, that fermentation, because I didn't understand that fermented, you know, what fermentation tasted like, basically, right? And so that for that reason, I swore off kombucha. I've never had a kombucha until I sat down with you a couple of months ago and had yours.

Yeah. Yeah. I think what you can say, you know, and this, we get to ask that question a lot, like especially Terrence and I, right?

Because for the most part, we brew, quote unquote, traditionally. But, you know, Terrence learned how to brew in Thailand. And he actually met a Russian tea master that taught him how to brew kombucha.

And so, yeah, so there's a lot of skill in what Terrence does. And then I think, you know, my going to culinary school and then also my technical background, like we, like, I can tell you exactly why you had that experience. Because what you're what you deal with in somebody at a farmers market, you know, and I'm not trying to throw shade.

What I'm trying to do is like, like bring expertise to this conversation. And so what can happen with that is, if you are not paying particular attention to like, the balance of what we talked about at the beginning of the scoby, which is, it's a balance of both bacteria and yeast. If that's out of balance, then your experience that you have tells me that the yeast was probably dominant in that kombucha.

So you probably tasted a little bit more funk. And like I say, I wasn't there, but I can tell you like why that happens. And so, both Terrence and I, our reasoning is probably different, because Terrence also used to fight MMA.

And so, I don't know when Terrence last drank, but again, he's somebody that hasn't had alcohol in his system in probably decades, you know? And I know for me, once I got out of college and kind of got away from the crowd, I literally only drank two years of my life. And that was when there was kind of more peer pressure, trying to fit in, stuff like that.

But at the end of the day, for me, it was like, one, I don't like the way it tastes, and two, I don't like that feeling you just described. So I'm just not doing it. And so from that point on, you know, I've always looked for something that I could feel good about, that was good for me, and that was what I'm gonna call sustainably elevating.

Mm, say more about that. That's, wow, that's a phrase.

Yeah, because the few years that I did drink alcohol, you know, what I noticed was, like, economically, it's not sustainable, you know? Because that was one of my experiences. That was one of the things that, for me, I was like, okay, this is done, right?

I went out with a bunch of friends, and, you know, this is back when I was in college. We were on Sixth Street in Austin. I don't know, Anne, if you know about Sixth Street, but back then, you know, and I'm gonna tell my, I'm gonna date myself, but back then, there were happy hours where you could, you know, buy drinks for 50 cents.

You know, and that would go on from like 2.30 in the afternoon till like about, you know, nine or 10 p.m., you know, when live music was gonna start. And all Sixth Street was at that point was bars. And so I worked at a hotel, so that's another place where there's a lot of like, you know, partying and alcohol consumption.

And I was a bellman, so I had cash all the time. You know, so these things, you know, came to a head one weekend where we were like, okay, we're gonna drink in every bar up and down Sixth Street. That was a goal, right?

These are bad goals. But, you know, when you're 19, 20, 21, these are the kind of things that come into your head, your friends are doing this. But at the end of that weekend, my bank account had $13.61 in it.

It started out with way more than that. And my rent was due. So that was the first thing.

So what I'm saying is like that behavior. Now, fortunately, like I didn't get drunk, I didn't get in trouble, none of those things. But like looking at that, you know, one, I didn't like anything I tasted the whole time, right?

Two, now I'm faced with the situation where I was like, I got $13 and my rent is due on Monday. You know, so basically for me, that was like one of those aha moments where I was like, okay, this is not worth it. Like I have, I have, I have lost probably, I'm ashamed to say, like about a grand, you know, and I got to figure out how to come up with my rent on Monday because of this behavior.

And so that's when I started thinking, you know, and that idea from, you know, like that 22, 23 year old version of myself doesn't come to fruition until I start like racing. And then I start thinking like, you know, and this is where Kombucha came in really for me, is that on an Ironman course, back then when I was racing, a lot of times what they would give you is de-fizzed coke, which is, you know, coke with no fizz so that you can have enough sugar, carbohydrates, to fuel your body, to hopefully get you to the finish line. Problem with that is coke is kind of addicted, you know, also kind of like alcohol in that way.

It's just people don't think of it that way, but you start to crave it. And again, that's not sustainable, you know, and I had also realized that in my life, I had used coke to clean off my batteries when I was trying to like, you know, fix stuff in my car. And so, I'm like, I'm drinking this.

I'm not the best for your insides, if you can.

Right. So, that's where this whole, like, you know, sustainable, like, thing comes in to mind. It's like, man, I can't drink this until I'm 70, you know, not at the rate I was starting to drink it.

And so, somebody was like, oh, you should try kombucha. So, I go to the store and it's kind of like Chris, you know, and at this point, like I say, I'm in my 30s. And so, I probably haven't had anything to drink in over a decade, you know, and I take one of those first store bought kombuchas and then, you know, I'm looking at it, I was like, oh, blueberries and lime and, you know, ginger, I was like, oh, this is great.

First, I open it, I don't smell any of those things. And then I taste it, and I really don't taste any of those things either. And then I have kind of the same experience Chris had, you know, that he described, and I'm like, okay, this isn't gonna work.

But for me, I'm kind of like, well, I need something to drink, and they say this is healthy, but if I'm gonna drink a lot of it, I'm gonna have to fix this. It's got to taste better, you know? And so that's the basis of how that journey happens, but it's also like that whole sustainable thing is like, something good for you, you want it to be repetitive, so that it's easy to be repetitive.

And so that's what makes it sustainable. Like if you try my kombucha, Chris, and you're like, oh, I really like this, then it's not something like, I have to drink it because it's good for me. Yeah, it's good for you, but you're really drinking it because you like it.

Right, there's a difference between want to and have to, right?

Yes.

And I don't have to drink it, I want to drink it as a choice that I'm making to have this in my life. Okay, so you kind of sped, but intended, right over the athlete part of it. Tell us about the athlete part because that sounds really interesting.

You mentioned racing, but what's up with that?

So I think really the thing that I think about it is like at the time, it was something that was really social. I happened to be real fortunate. I was in Austin.

I was working at this running store that doesn't exist anymore called Run Text. It used to be like right down off of Town Lake. Yeah.

It's a tequila place now.

Yeah, exactly. But it used to be something really healthy. And I met all these people that were like into running, and then I met some people that were into cycling.

I started riding bikes all the time. And I'll be honest, for a long time, that was how my vacations were planned. I was either going to run a race or I was going to ride.

But I started having these dreams about swimming. Only problem was, I didn't swim. I had gone to the Y.

My mom had taken me there to learn to swim as a kid. But that kind of swimming and literally being able to swim to kind of save your life, those are completely different things. And so I was having these nightmares about being like left in the middle of an ocean at night.

And number one, I couldn't find land. And number two, like even if I could, could I swim to it? And so I got into this place where I was like, okay, I need to work on this.

And so at that time, somebody, a friend of mine that we've been friends for years, but we had just met, and he was like, hey, I'm gonna do a triathlon. And I was like, oh man, I'm not a great swimmer. He's like, well, this is completely old-off.

He was like, well, I got a lake in my backyard. We can just practice out there.

I can't do that anymore, but there was a time.

There was a time, yeah. And so we started swimming and all this other stuff, and I took some lessons. And man, that was probably one of the most humbling things I think I've ever gone through in my life.

Aside from walking in that kitchen, to go to culinary school the first time, that was humbling too, because I had no skills. But that first swim lesson, I would be honest, I couldn't swim 25 meters. You know, and it was funny, because like I tell this story, because it's one of the things where people have a perception, and then of you, and you can feel that perception, and that makes it even more intimidating, because you know the truth, you know?

And that first time I walked in the deck, I had been cycling all summer and racing all summer. And I was probably at that point the most fit I'd ever been. Like that's beyond like basketball, like anything.

I walked in, I was ripped, you know? And everybody looks at me and they're like, oh man, he's about to tear this water up. And I'm like, oh, dude.

This is not what's gonna happen. And so I remember getting out of the pool after that first lesson. And I was like, man, at least I didn't drown, you know?

Cause I was exhausted, you know? Like none of that fitness translated, none of that muscular cheer translated. In fact, it might've actually been a detriment cause I wasn't buoyant.

Like you got all of this stuff. And I remember talking to my mom and she was like, well, you know, you don't have to go back. And I was like, oh no, I gotta go back.

Because otherwise, if anything happens, I'm gonna drown. Right. So I've got to go back.

And so that was like every day, just getting out of the water and swimming a little further was like a win.

I like that. That's a lesson in that. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not kidding, man.

That was so humbling because, you know, I grew up playing sports and like I said, basketball was easy, you know, soccer, gymnastics, like all this other stuff I had done. And swimming, that was a whole, that was that was humbling.

Yeah, they're so excited. I don't mean to cut you off Fred, but you know, obviously I've done, you know, different sports myself. But like, I imagine that there's something because I'm drawing a parallel between, you know, I don't know your story about, you know, it sounds like you kind of had these, you know, epiphanies that maybe it took me or Chris a longer time to realize about the detriments of alcohol.

You know, our past and sobriety looked a little different, but it sounds like the water is something you can't control. And so you got to learn to work with it in ways that in other sports you don't. And I feel like that's also been my experience with sobriety is like, this isn't just something I could come and like practice, and this isn't just something I can come and figure out right away.

It's something I had to work with and learn how to flow with. Can you talk more about what was so humbling about swimming? It also is making me want to take up swimming.

Maybe not ultra marathon type swimming, but there's something to that process of learning something that's that much not in your control. I want to know more about that.

I think you're right. I think the control thing, I think, honestly, with almost everything else, you also have, at least to me, you have role models. You can see somebody doing it, right?

And I'll tell you, it wasn't until I was doing tries that I even saw people of color swimming. And I didn't see a lot of them. And so I remember going to the Y out in East Austin, and Chris can relate to this.

Typically, traditionally, there's more people of color, and they got this beautiful new facility, and I just happened to be working out there and walk out there. And this is after I've been racing for a few years, right? And so I jump in the pool, I swim my laps, I get out, and the lifeguard is like, where are you from?

Because no one was swimming laps out there of color. And so what I'm going to say is that it is different because you've got to learn, like you're saying, and you've got to learn to work with the water. That's when I really got it.

You do not fight the water, and you don't try to shape the water to your will. You use the water to guide you how to shape your body.

And I think that's the same thing with like, if I have to think about like why I don't drink alcohol, it's the same thing. It's like I'm trying to shape, not just my experience, my outcome. I'm also trying to shape my body in space.

You know, and I can remember, like I was telling you, I can remember little things about when I did drink. Like I drink and I look at myself the next morning, and I was like, that's not how I want to look. Like you could see it, right?

But then there's also that feeling, like you're like, I don't feel quite right. Like I'm still not back to myself. And I think that's the other piece is like, the most profound thing I think I've learned from kind of doing both is that if I drink some kombucha or I drink like a glass of water or something, it's not taking me away from myself.

If I have alcohol, there's a whole lot of stuff I got to do to get back to who I was before I started.

Yeah, and some of that is logistical, right? Some of it is the like, I might have caused negative consequences. I might have done something at work.

I might have had an argument.

Said something.

Yeah. But most of it is this internal like with myself, I have to recalibrate myself. And that is what is so insidious about alcohol to me, is that it's not just the outside, the external stuff, the relational stuff.

It's how I look at myself, like you said, in the mirror. How do I get back to seeing someone that I want to be? Yeah.

And so I just love that. Again, this is what this podcast is all about. This is exactly what we kind of hypothesize here, is that the best version of anyone is when they're at their optimum best.

Right. Whether you're an athlete or whether you're someone in recovery. And that can only come through seeing yourself as you want to be, and being at the peak of your performance.

You know, and I just think that you're just weaving this entire thing together so well. As for getting ready to close out, Fred, I'm curious to know what your life looks like today in relationship to sports. What are you, are you active still?

Yeah.

Do you watch sports? What's going on with you?

Oh man, like I was saying before we started, one, I have to do something every day. And so what it looks like now is, you know, what I think is interesting, you know, I'll say this, is like, my goal is to be active until I'm not on this planet. You know, and so in search of that goal or in support of that goal, you know, I try to do something every day, whether it's like simple as go for a walk.

You know, like I've run at this point, probably 40, over 40 years, and I keep getting asked like, you know, what about your knees? And I was like, my knees are fine. You know, and a lot of that has to do with like, having that goal.

And my goal has always been this way, right? Like again, the decision to stop drinking is part of that goal, right? You know, so I take care of the fact is like, well, if I can't walk, then I know I'm not gonna be able to run.

So I walk a lot, you know? And so I try to make sure that I'm maintaining that foundation, you know? And if I have to stop or whatever, like, you know, I got COVID a few years ago, couldn't do something.

So, you know, when I went back, I didn't start running. I walked for about a month, you know, and just gradually increased the walking. And then I started running a couple of minutes.

And when I say a couple of minutes, it's like two minutes and I stop and walk. I don't push anything at this point, you know? And that's something I learned from Iron Man, honestly, is like, your goal isn't to do all this work.

Your goal is to build up to be able to do that work. And you've got another workout. So you do not extinguish your fire in one workout ever.

It's good stuff, Fred, it's good stuff. Anne, any closing thoughts?

No, I mean, I just, you know, I think about, and we talk about, you know, obviously the most popular athletes, but I think about somebody like LeBron, you know, obviously the longevity he has, he can't, like he can't, but he does get the most out of the specific time that he spends training. And I think there's a difference between the two. I got to hear this take though, right?

Where are you living in Oklahoma City? Or is that just where you went to school?

No, I went there. I went to school there. And so what I'll say is this, like I say, I watch basketball a lot.

I played basketball in high school and would have played in college, but got injured. But what I'll say is this, the way I see the game is probably a little different. I don't think OKC can beat Indiana.

And the reason is this. Number one, Indiana has a legitimate bench.

Yeah.

And to win a title, you need a bench. Like, and the thing about Indiana, too, their bench puts pressure on your rim, like consistent pressure. It's not like other teams where you can score a bucket, you can get a steal, do a slam dunk.

What you saw in these three games, even the ones that the one that Indiana lost, I'm pretty sure if you think about it, you saw Indiana coming right back down, scoring like before OKC could get set and have their heads turned around for defense. So you got that. The other piece is Indiana has been in more close games.

Like a lot more. OKC has been blowing people out all year. And so that's why the analyst and probably why even the odds makers are saying OKC has the advantage.

But when you beat people by that much, you are not used to being pressed at the end of a game. The last thing, well, there's other stuff. But the last thing is that I'll say for this is just that, you know, you've got a better coach on the other side, not because he's a better humor.

So he's got more experience, especially more experience with a team that people are discounting, you know, and that's the other piece is that if you're going to beat Indiana and beat them four times, you got to beat 10 people. You beat OKC, you only got to beat maybe two and a half. Right.

You know, and that's the difference that I see in this series, because if you look at the three games we've seen, like in the second quarter, Shay is already tired. Like if you watch him walk into the free throw line, watch him after a foul, he's laying on the ground, trying to get a couple of breaths. Like Oklahoma's whole team is doing that.

You don't see that on Indiana's team. You don't see them grabbing their shorts. You know, so those are the little things and there's others, right?

But when I was, I was watching Indiana in February and I was like, man, this is the best team I see right now. And they've proven it. Like they demolish Cleveland.

And Cleveland's got a good team. You know, and that's the other piece is, if you really think about it, they've played tougher competition at this point in the year. Whereas OKC, to get to this finals, like no team has had as much talent as far as like consistent overall talent.

We have stars, right? And that's another thing that people don't understand is like, stars get you so far, but you're gonna have to be everybody on OKC, starting five and their bench. I mean, Benedict Matheran just came out in 22 minutes and scored 27 points off the bench.

So that's why I'm like, man, I don't see OKC. I think OKC is gonna get tired or continue to be tired. Because if Indiana even keeps those games close, then they've got way more gas.

They just have.

Yeah, and I was gonna say, OKC just looks gassed.

They just look.

Like they've been running this consistent, frenetic pace all season long. And it's like, here you are at the end, and you have just nothing left. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, what was she like, one for 10 in the fourth quarter last game? Something like that. I mean, that's fatigue.

So.

Right, which you know about. I mean, fatigue makes a coward out of all of us, right? So it's like, especially, I'm sure you know that as an ultimarathon or like, I agree.

Obviously, that's from a coach's perspective. Those are all the small things that you're looking at. But yeah, to have a strong bench and to just play with that pace.

No one can match their pace.

That pace is insane. And that's what I was seeing in February. I was like, dude, who's going to keep up with them?

And here's the other piece too, that people, and I can't believe this, like, because it wasn't Halliburton, Bird voted the most overrated star. That's insane. The passes that that guy, you know, facilitates, the windows, he, like, honestly, my respect for him has gone way up and it was already high.

But when I see some of the windows that he's able to pass and see, I mean, it's, when I think of like, what's comparable, like, I start thinking about Bird, Magic, and like, just that level of, like, impact on the flow of the game. He's not just trying to score, he's, like, managing the game. But then you got somebody like McConnell that comes out the bench, that does it in a different way, but he's also always putting pressure on that rim, always.

I just don't see them matching that. I just don't.

It's going to be really fun to see what happens tonight. I think this is a pivotal game for her. I think it's going to swing the momentum of the series.

And yeah, I don't see them coming back if they go down.

Yeah, if they go down 3-1, that's all she wrote. Like I say, I don't see an easy path for OKC to pull off four wins. They might get two, but I don't see four.

That's wild. It's wild. It's just wild.

It's wild to think about that statement being absolutely true. It just is, right? It started the playoffs and that just did not seem like a statement that anyone could say in good faith.

But now you see it for yourself.

You see it playing out.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I've got a few things where I've said stuff like that. You know, and I was talking to friends that know me, and they're like, yeah, man, you've you've usually been right about stuff like that.

Like I was calling Denver's championship, like I think in like November, the year that they won, I was like, I watched them and they and Yo-Kick wasn't playing and Murray was hurt too. And I was like, that team is going to win because they had a strong bench and their role players that started were strong enough. And I was like, all that's going to happen because these two guys are out, is everybody's going to get confident.

And that's literally what did it was like they had a strong enough bench. The reason they haven't been as dominant is because their bench is they, they all got paid somewhere else.

Yep, they all left, yeah. Yeah, they couldn't keep them. They couldn't retain them.

Well, I know we were talking before we would hopped on. I would love to listen to a podcast where you're talking shop like this because these are the minutiae that I get excited about because oftentimes the average fan doesn't necessarily understand these things. And it's not as sexy to talk about, but man, it's so interesting.

What's your idea for the project? When can we explore it?

Still, yeah, I want to, you know, I'll have to figure out if the name's still available, but I had this idea called just basketball analysis, you know, where we talk about like these types of details because I do think they matter, you know, and I watch a lot of like the first take and speak and stuff like that, and you don't hear this stuff. Like they're all shocked. And it's like, no, man, you can look at it and see it playing out if you know what to look for.

And I think, and I've even watched like, you know, former pros, and I think there's, and I got a lot of respect. I like these shows, right? But I do think they also miss some of these details, because sometimes if you're a great player, you just know how to put the ball in the hole.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that's true. But also, who was I listening to the, oh, I was listening to Cooper Cup talk about, you know, talk about offenses and how offensive, how defenses have evolved as football offenses have kind of evolved, right? And I was just like, I had to listen to it three times.

I'm just like, that is incredible football IQ. And I think what happens is, innately, they know some of those things, right? Like you're saying, it's just how you move.

But also, I think it's not always entertaining, because I think that's the other thing that at the end of the day, all these shows are selling ads. It's entertainment. So the minutiae, which is why I think that you would be so counterculture, kind of workshop the name a little bit, Fred.

Yeah, we'll work on something.

Yeah, we can work on it. Named a little bit of work. But other than that, the idea of it is so good.

And you're such a, and I mean this with all due respect, like you're such a visionary in the way that you see the field of everything in front of you. Be it business, be it sports, you're just such an analyst that I think that, and I think that's your tech background too. You just see things in a way that I think would make the average person entertained by that kind of podcast.

I think that John Groot in the same way. Sometimes people are just really good at educating people and saying, this is why I have this take, instead of this is my take in, I'm gonna fight with Stephen A. Smith about it.

No, you have the knowledge.

Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, we'll work on the name. And Anne, if you ever want to be a part of this.

Oh, I'd love to.

Yeah, man, cause like I say, I've been talking to friends about this for years. And I was telling one person, I was like, yeah, I remember when like the choice for the draft was Greg Oden and KB. Greg Oden went one.

And I was telling people, I wouldn't draft him. In fact, I wouldn't, not only would I not draft him number one, I wouldn't draft him. And people were like, why?

And I was like, well, first of all, let's look at the guy's body. I was like, his face is actually asymmetrical, which to me was saying that there was something there, like structurally. And that's what wound up happening was structurally, he had issues starting in high school.

I think, I think it was his knees. I don't even remember what it was. But all of those injuries meant that he was almost never on the court.

But like never. Whereas KD, yeah, well, he's KD, you know. And it was interesting because this was stuff that even the medicals weren't picking up.

But if you knew what to look for, because like I said, I've been in gyms my whole life. And I could, I could look at an athlete and be like, oh yeah, this dude's going to kill. He's just going to kill, you know.

And then I could look at somebody like, yeah, five years, maybe. And with Greg, it was like, I don't think he's going to make two.

Well, we've almost made an hour.

So, OK, sorry, guys.

This is great. No, this is fantastic. I really enjoyed this.

This is so serendipitous. I just got a call I got to jump on to. But Fred, thank you so much for being on the Clean Play Podcast.

This will not be the last time.

All right. Yes, absolutely.

Anytime you guys want, I'll jump on. I'll try to stay within time boundaries though.

It's just, it's average. I just got a call I got to take. But Fred, thank you so much for joining.

And great episode.

See you next time. Thank you so much, Fred. Peace.